Eschew Obfuscation: Zapino Batteries Weakening

Zapino Batteries Weakening

Max Dunn — Wed, 14 May 2008 11:10:00 -0700

While Altairno batteries have demonstrated 25,000 cycles, my Zapino batteries are starting to weaken after less than 500 shallow cycles.

This was evident in a ride I took today to Los Gatos to get a new battery for my MacBook. (Yes, even the lithium-ion battery in my MacBook gave out after less than 300 cycles! But this was likely just a manufacturing problem, not an inherent limitation.)

I knew the Electier batteries in my Zapino batteries were getting weak, so I rode in the “economy” mode the whole way, accelerated slowly and rode 25 MPH or less. There were some small hills but I took it really easy going up them. Nonetheless, by the time I was approaching home, the needle was dipping into the yellow upon acceleration and even starting to get in the red. The entire ride was 14 miles, and I probably could have nursed it another 3 to 5 miles, but this was still only about half of the 30 mile range that we got when the Zapino was new.

"Zapino Batteries Weakening" by Mike O'Donnell

Sat, 25 Oct 2008 15:39:23 -0700

I have a rather new Zapino. Delivered late July 2008, but the charger burned out, and I couldn’t ride much until recently. They sent a different model of charger, and it seems to be OK.

I have experienced 15-17 mile range at full speed on flat roads. I weigh 195 pounds. My scooter is wired to go no more than about 28 mph. My speedometer agrees well with a roadside radar unit (are you guys sure you’re reading the mph and not the kph scale?). They may wire the limit only for particular states—-Illinois for me, but the scooter was delivered to Wisconsin, so who knows what standards they used.

I still had power at the end of the 15 and 17 mile trips(converted the odometer km-mi, and checked against the mileage from Google maps), but acceleration was very weak from a stop in the last few yards. On another occasion, I ran the batteries all the way down (little trips while waiting for the new charger), and found the motor cutting out entirely. But I neglected to note the mileage after the previous charge, so I don’t know how far I had gone.

For my purposes, full speed is important to avoid traffic trouble, and 15 mile round trips are the most I usually want to do, anyway.

I think that a better program in the control unit could soften the startup. The motor control appears to contain a microprocessor, so in principle they can deliver almost any sort of response with the right program.

I often find that the startup is softer if I turn the speed control (“throttle,” but it’s not really a throttle) with the brake on, then pop the brake. Perhaps the shutoff that the brake triggers comes on softer than the handle control.

Cheers,

Mike O’Donnell

"Zapino Batteries Weakening" by Max Dunn

Wed, 15 Oct 2008 11:09:55 -0700

Battery Update

I am now getting only about 7 miles out of my Zapino batteries. Yesterday, I charged them up and then tested them to see if they were out of balance. But they all looked good. Here are the voltages I measured when there was a small load (the scooter on its stand and the back wheel spinning at top speed):

Battery #, Voltage
1: 13.05
2: 13.11
3: 13.05
4: 13:09
5: 13.10

I am going to ride it a while to drain the batteries and do the test again to see if they get out of balance.

"Zapino Batteries Weakening" by Max Dunn

Sat, 28 Jun 2008 11:14:02 -0700

Yes, the throttle is very sensitive on the Zapino, especially when trying to maneuver slowly.

The problem is that on a gas engine, the throttle is proportional to the power applied while on the Zapino (and many other electric vehicles) the throttle is proportional to the speed. So twisting the throttle a little bit on an electric scooter and it will apply lots of power to get to that speed. Once that speed is reached, then the power will be cut back.

You can feel this most clearly when riding on a street with little ups and downs without moving the throttle. When going up the incline, more power will be applied to maintain the speed and when going down, it will decrease the power. This is different from a gas scooter that would go more slowly up the inclines and faster down them.

"Zapino Batteries Weakening" by Terry J Fundak

Sat, 28 Jun 2008 09:10:34 -0700

Good Morning Max,

Thanx for the information.

Are experience are pretty much the same then. Have you asked Zap about the funkiness? I think I’ll inquire about it. Sounds like a software/hardware bug to me.

I also think the throttle “feel” at the startup level is too sensitive. It goes from nothing to get up and go in an abrupt way that is not totally a “polished” experience to me. This makes start-up in a tight space a little tricky. I have adapted by pushing the Zapino out of tight parking situtations as opposed to trying to slowly turn with a little throttle action.

Do you find the throttle action a little bit “off” at startup?

Terry

"Zapino Batteries Weakening" by Max Dunn

Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:50:16 -0700

Hi Terry – congratulations on being a Zapino owner!

Here are the answers to your questions:

1. Sometimes the Zapino does act funky when you first turn on the key, either going slowly or sometimes not going at all. Turning the key off and back on again fixes the problem, although sometimes you might need to do this several times.

2. The speedometer ready notoriously high. I checked it by riding past one of those radar speed limit displays and saw that when the speedometer said I was going about 40 MPH, I was really only going 35 MPH. So the speedometer reads about 10% too high. This means that my top speed is probably around 38 MPH, which is still plenty fast.

3. We use the Kill-A-Watt meter to measure how much energy we put into the Zapino. Based on that, we are getting about 10 miles per input of kWh. Since the charger and battery have a combined efficiency of about 70%, from the battery it is getting about 14 miles/kWh.

4. The best place for information is the V is for Voltage forum where there is a special section for Zapinos.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

"Zapino Batteries Weakening" by Terry J Fundak

Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:43:16 -0700

Hi Max,

I’m a new Zapino owner …. about 250 mile so far… I’m tracking miles/kWhr at about 13-14 average thus far though I have not done so on a trip basis. One thing I have noticed is that sometimes the Zapino sometimes starts off the trip with slow acceleration but that if I turn off the key and turn it back on, it will then accelerate as usual… very snappy. Have you seen this with your? Another question: I’m not sure that mine has a true speed limit switch as I can go as fast as about 43 miles per hour. I was not expecting it to go that fast, what is your top speed. I’d also be interested in how you are tracking battery performance – hardware and software. I have a little databases and a Energy meter but I’d like to get more information. What forums do you look in for more information?

Terry – Santa Rosa, CA

"Zapino Batteries Weakening" by J.R.

Sun, 18 May 2008 19:50:50 -0700

Sorry to hear about your battery disappointment. Any kind of warranty from the manufacturer? And thanks again for exploring this domain (and writing about your experiences) for us lurkers. -J.R.

"Zapino Batteries Weakening" by Max Dunn

Wed, 14 May 2008 15:49:06 -0700

While charging, I hooked up the power meter and saw that the batteries took only about 0.800 kWh of electricity. They should hold 2.28 kWh so the batteries appear to be holding less than half their original charge. Another interesting thing is that the 0.800 wKh took the Zapino about 14 miles, which works out to about 60 wH per mile – much less than the 100 wH per mile it takes when riding normally. So my slow, conservative riding was 40% more efficient.